Metrics That Matter Most in 2020

Measuring the impact of advertising campaigns is critical to optimizing a programmatic strategy. 

Return on Investment (ROI) and Return of Ad Spend (ROAS) are the most meaningful metrics for tracking success according to our recent research with Ascend2

In Metrics That Matter Most in 2020, our experts will walk through the top metrics marketers should pay attention to. 

Covered in this webinar:

  • What experts consider the most important metrics to track (backed by original research fielded in May 2020 by Perfect Audience and Ascend2)
  • How to build a strong analysis process that will give you the insight needed to reach your goals
  • How you can continually boost performance and lower your cost per acquisition by focusing on the right metrics/KPIs and cutting out the noise
  • Behind-the-scenes look at our research findings from content expert Kathryn Hawkins, founder of Eucalypt Media, who surveyed the advertisers in our study

Watch the recording!

View the slide deck:



Hi, everybody. Welcome, And thank you for joining us today.

I’m Kathleen Davis from the Marketing Team here at Perfect Audience, and today, we’re going to be discussing metrics that matter most in 20 20, But before we get started, I just want to remind everybody that we do do a Q and A at the end of each webinar. So if you have questions now or throughout the presentation, you can go ahead and type them in the chat box at the bottom right of the screen, and we’ll get to as many of those as we can at the end.

But today, we, I’m going to introduce our speakers so far. So we have Joe Wholey Hartman from Roberto and he also serves as the AI Lab Director for us here at Perfect Audience.

And next, we have Eric Stockton, who’s our general manager here at Perfect Audience. Sound for growing businesses and sales organizations over the years and he’s also spoken at many events. Marketing Sherpa, events, e-mail summit, B2B, demand, and some and others just like that.

And then our guests for today who are super excited to have joining us is Catherine Hawkins from Eucalyptus Media. We’ve been working with … Eucalyptus for a little bit now, so thanks Kathryn for joining us today.



So, today, before we get into talking about the metrics that matter, we wanted to start out with this question, What are your goals? Because, you know, when you, before you decide what metrics you want to focus on, this is the question that you have to ask yourself.

And your most valuable metrics are going to vary, depending on what those might be, So, Eric, I’m going to let you jump into this a little bit, but we wanted to just emphasize that you have to understand the why behind your goals before you’re able to.

Before you’re able to create any kind of plan that’s gonna work for your metrics.

Yeah, I think that’s right. So Just over the reason why we put this webinar together, and the end, the topic.

I think it’s so important is because we’ve had so many Advertisers over, you know, over the last several months. Ask us, you know, What should I be optimizing for? And then, that, that question, you really can’t be answered in ice and, like, in a vacuum.

And my, in my experience over the years, just, you know, optimizing and working on my own campaigns or running teams, that you have to start to take a step back and ask you, What’s your, what’s the goal? What’s the strategy behind the tactics that you’re employing?

So, I’ve seen a good example would be, I’ve seen a lot of marketing managers step into a new role. And they’ve inherited a series of channels that they are now charged with managing.

And, you know, they get into it several months and they’re managing the KPIs that were sort of handed down to them.

But, you know, things go south, or things aren’t working in the way that they should, or, you know, they’re not hitting the numbers of it, you know that they should be hitting.

What ends up happening is, you know, you, you realize that, they’ve been sort of taking the same numbers, and the same approach, and don’t have the underlying strategy that feeds into those channels, because maybe those channels are changing, or maybe they’ve shifted Or maybe the goal isn’t the goal anymore. You know, and so have the understanding. The why, behind the goal.

Is, really is really the, that’s sort of the whole crux of this, of this sweater.

Yeah, and just like Eric was just talking about, sometimes, those oles shift as you go as, as time changes as your business evolves.

So, as you can see, like, there’s the Business life cycle graphic we have here, and it kinda just shows how you’re, Your focus well, It will shift over time, and why that. And why your metrics will shift at the same time.

Yeah. So, yeah.

So, the metric that you’re optimizing for, yeah, at the beginning, if you are just launching a new product, you know, the KPI that you are focusing in on is going to be completely different than, you know, if you’re in a more mature model and you have built out channels And you understand what the underlying drivers are for the, you know, for the business. Prior to handing them off to, like, a sales team.

If you’re in the B2B space, or if your e-commerce, you know, you know, your, your metrics are gonna be different, because they know those, those, those individual channels have, have, you brought in more data, and allowed you to be able to, yeah, see what’s driving. What’s driving revenue.

And, and I think, I would probably stress like that communication between departments is key here, if you’re in a management position.

And in you, especially if you’re something like an NDB, let’s say you’re in a management position, maybe you’re a director level or something and you know half your job is really communicating the from the finance side of things. What the CFO is looking for in those, you know, in those numbers, the cost drivers communicating that correctly. And then, also, on, through to the sales team.

To make sure that, you know, the leads that you’re handing off are going full funnel and actually closing. So, you know, having the right expectations and setting that expectation across the whole life cycle.5:51All right. Great.

So with that, we’re gonna jump into some of the research we’ve recently done on metrics and how people are using them today. And not that long ago, in May, we did some research in partnership with Ascend to. And during this research, we sent out a survey and asked a group of marketers, Which metrics were the most important for their businesses?

So here on the slide, you can see the results from that survey with RI being the most popular and then Rasping second.

But, as you can see, there’s also click through conversion, cost per click, et cetera, that marketers are, are using.

This was interesting, when I first saw this data come back, so there’s a couple things that stand out to me on it. one is the view through conversion. Just, if you’re not familiar with that, is, it means somebody saw the ad at some point in the cookie window over the last 90 days, or whatever, and then purchase. Actually came back as the lowest, mean, most meaningful to everybody.

What’s interesting about that is, when you look at advertising as a whole, that’s actually what you’re trying to do, is drive as many touches, it ultimately drive conversions. And so, we kind of work backwards up from that. It’s, like, how many people have seen this? How many people ultimately, at some point in the buying? And as you’re spending, gets bigger and bigger, that becomes more and more important. Right. It’s like the big, big advertisers. That’s really all they’re looking as branding at that point. So, I thought this was interesting. Also, We were talking about the return on investment versus return on ad spend. I think you’re going to touch on that. The difference between those two is that the next one, Teslin? Yes. That’s right.

So, that’s a thing as a commonly confused kind of metric, but we’re going to drill into that.

But, yeah, these are, these are interesting, and I think one thing, just from a data perspective, that I see a lot, is, we’re always, and everybody on this call, the Presenter Panel, anyways. We’re all always trying to understand the metrics. Are they accurate? Or they weren’t, we’d expect, can we present them properly? Because it can make a huge difference between something barely working something, making tons of profit something, losing you money.

And so, you have to get it right, and it’s very hard, sometimes, we don’t always have the info to read. There’s a lot of different things you can be tracking, like to do even this chart.

Like, if you’re just looking at the click through percentage, that might not actually be resulting in conversions. Which is what your end goal. And so you have to kind of be careful, and make sure you’re looking at false positives, and so on. So there’s a lot to it. And in fact, that’s why we’re here. We deal with this all the time. We know our advertisers do as well, and we’re actually here to help you with that. So both on this webinar and actually contacting us. So, sorry, go ahead those, My little.

No, that’s great. Thanks.8:48Before we get into kind of the difference between rho and rho S rho S, we have some quotes from marketers from this survey.

And this one specifically is from Lauren Patrick, the VP of Marketing at curricula. So this is kind of like her stance on why ROI so important. So she says it’s definitely the most important metric for marketing leaders, especially at an early stage or technology startups in their credit stage. And this is kind of going back to what we mentioned at the beginning about how your metric focus might shift depending on where you’re at and the business model.

And so, obviously for people in the early stages, ROIs definitely super important but, yeah, establishing what that is and what that means because that is going, you know, Roi is going to yeah, obviously.

For different types of companies, going to be different things. So you know establishing truly What the number is and what the metric is, and why it’s important and has to be you know at or near the top of the list when you’re first. doing lots of things like market testing and channel, testing, new channel, testing things like that.

So yeah, That’s where I sit with that. She also mentioned The cost of customer acquisition was it was another Key point is talking about how much did you invest Initially to bring on a customer, and what did they come through? Just so you can really track? What’s what’s profitable, What’s what’s getting in return for you and understanding how? You can optimize and make those shifts as as needed. So I think an interesting point. to Just just in those early stages. Yeah, it really focuses bringing new people, and getting them to be long-term customers mm. Hmm.

An interesting thing that we’re talking to customers a lot, is they’ll say, My budget is $10000 a month, and so that’s fine. Like, I totally understand. We’ll have the budgets, but what it also tells us is that they’re not thinking about the full funnel, right? They don’t have an established acquisition costs, like Catherine was talking about, and lifetime value the customer, and they’re not comparing those two, and what is the airline. So, you’re getting into a mode of like, I spend $10 a month, and it’s really just because I don’t know if that $10000 working or not, right, and that’s as far as I’m willing to go on the air, air can attest to assist people have spent half a million dollars in a day, right? Because they figured out that it works.

And they figured out that they know if they spend this 2.1 months, They’re gonna get their money back, and then they start making money or whatever that formula is. So that’s the goal, I think, as advertisers were trying to get down, to start this like, formula of, I know if I spend a dollar, I make two.

And once you do that, it’s really just a matter of scaling, like, how can I find more volume, and how can I, it’s amazing this, but it’s, if you get that wrong from the beginning, you get very confused about what your budget is, and what your capacity for growth.

That’s right. Yeah, and you can get away from real quick. So I think that brings up the next slide, right?

That’s right. The difference in RI and R O S?

Yeah. So rho as, is, you know sort of that leading indicator, right? That helps you figure out on our by channel basis what what’s happening with your individual campaigns, right? And that those, those rojas numbers drive the ROI. In fact, the overall, our ally of the marketing department or your marketing campaign, if you’re an individual, you know, business owner or something running your own pace, So yeah, the, the row as really is, what kinda brings that, you know, sort of front and center to you.

And establishing that by channel is super important, because you might have really high quality leads in a particular channel, and less quality leads, but twice as many in another channel. But, at the end, but it’s cheaper, greater or less expensive rate, and URL rojas is better.

But as as you look at the serve as ever, all the numbers roll up, what’s the overall ROI on the campaign, Because that’s all that really matters. Right, at the end of the day, you know, are these campaigns in aggregate, really driving the business forward?

I saw a good example of, sorry, definitely, go ahead.

That’s another good example to clarify this point for me, and it’s like, what the advertiser was, as an e-commerce advertiser, they were someone a pair of shorts and a pair of pants.

So, the row hours on this campaign was positive, mean, they were making back and revenue what they were spending plus. But, what they actually, the, the, the pants had a higher cost.

So it was not our ally, right. So, that would have given you kind of a false positives that the campaign is working, then you run the numbers of the month. You should have shifted the budget to the answer to the shorts and when you’re making more money.

So, I think when you get an e-commerce and grant, where you’re very granular on each product has a certain profit margin. That becomes very important when you’re trying to test a new channel. Just say, like, OK, can I drive traffic profitably, roughly?

I think the rise is great, because I don’t have a quote about that, where it’s just gives you a real high level indicator, is the word We do, which is right here, this is our next side layer.

Katherine, I don’t know if you want to give some background on this quote, This is from the better.


So this is one of the people I talk to basically saying that if you are looking at the arrow, the row as sometimes you are being able to track, like, if an ad is doing what you need to do, it’s, it’s just a way to tell you that you’re not getting the results that you want. You need to immediately. And so that’s, that’s something that I think it’s, I feel like between. The ROI is is very important, but it’s also less easy to access. I mean, it’s something that sometimes there’s more comprehensive measurements. They need to go into it. I mean, things like if you have, like, for instance, hired an agency to develop an e-book or something for you. You might be paying like four or $5000 for that, and that’s something that you kind of need to calculate that into your bottom line. But that’s that’s harder to kind of analyze on a day-to-day basis versus that, OK, this is how much you’re sending to get these results from this fixed your ad. So I mean, I think it’s it’s the sort of thing where the row as makes it it’s, I think it’s very important to just because you are able to make their ships immediately, understand, like, on a day-to-day level, OK, this is, this is where I can be shifting my budget accordingly.

That’s a great point.

From an automation standpoint, I can, I can testify that some of these channels, including ours to degree from an advertiser because they’re using the roas, because that’s the only number they have, really don’t know what the profit on your product is. So the algorithms are going to optimize for what you’re seeing, the value that sale is, too. And so that’s one area where it’s, you have to be kinda cognizant of the two, where you can make some big mistakes, in terms of setting your, your targets, and so on.

So, we’re gonna go ahead and move on to the next one, unless you wanted to talk about, for us, Eric?

No, I think, I think it’s, so kind of the next step in the process right now.

How to look at your metrics. Now that you set your goals, how do you reach them? And, I mean, that’s a pretty good question. It’s probably almost as big as the first question of, what are your goals?

So salvos answer that, we’ve got our next quote from Gabrielle, from Charlotte AI. And he kind of is, is basically saying that once you’ve got the ROI, once you’ve got that metric that you’re watching, it’s going to tell you what to do with your ads, what we’re trying to stop running, which ones to keep going, and wished to give them another shot.

Yeah, so we had gathered on, let’s say, the two weeks ago, and he did a great job.

And in the last webinar that we, that, we that we did and it basically talked about different types of ad sizes and different types of campaigns, and like on a tactical level.

But really, the whole message of the webinar was more about, we want to test and you want to iterate, and you want to do it very quickly.

So that you can learn what’s working, what’s not working. And dial in as fast and as efficiently as you can, So testing multiple combinations. And we have a lot of experience with that. You know, as marketers, when we’re doing things like AB split tests for landing pages, right?

You do the same sorts of things with ads when you’re running an ad campaign. So there’s, there’s a lot of, lot of iterative process and a lot of multiple combinations that you’re testing to find that, right? one, you know, that’s the winner, right? And so there’s, a, there are a number of metrics that we go through to be able to determine that. And, you know, maybe Jalali wants to talk real quick about that.

Yeah, so, I’m kind of geeky, and like, like I love looking at stuff like this, because I am looking for the opportunity is going to test while he is in the TV.

It’s kinda fun, it is boring, and we’ll let you know scare people away a parties, but I mean, most of my first VISTA in like dealing with numbers and look at these numbers and trying to find money and the numbers are, and that’s her is it, whether it’s your build the product or highway or up ad campaign, Like you have to understand what’s going on.

So when I look at this, OK, what does the first is, like, OK, I see they’ve made 4.3 times their money, that’s great. The conversions are great.

Like, I don’t know, I have no context where it’s like, is this good or bad? I don’t really know. I wouldn’t know what to do and how to optimize.

I do know, however, that I’m paying for CPM.


So I’m paying for the impression whether I get a cliff or not, and so the first place that I started is I want to get more clicks on those impressions. I’m already paying for it.

They 5 and 10 for clicks, I don’t care about the impressions. What let them run as many persons as they want.

I want to clicks and kind of go down the funnel that way.

Right, and then, so once I get to click, OK, And I can tell from that zero point one nine point 109, That’s low, just because when I have access to all the data, all the advertisers. I know that’s low, So that’s an area where, OK, maybe I need to make it better and do better targeting.

I’m like, I gotta get more people responding to this.

Then I go down to the conversions, OK, well, conversions, I mean, obviously the conversion rate there, but that’s the next thing I would look at.

You know, we know that we should be getting X percentage of the people buying, If they’re not, then maybe we need to look at that landing page and look at the funnel before we go back and drive more impressions. So, that’s kinda the system. As, you can see, it gets very complicated fast. And where the industry is going is just no, no person can do this. By themselves. Are the things like perfect audience platform comes in, or automation rates. You need to be able to.

These things are, it’s alive, and there’s no way that you can, you can manage it.20:03You can, however, get really good at just setting your goal.

Like, we know we need to meet this one. We know that, that needs to be above four.

We know what the CPA needs to be, so on this 1 is 396. I know it needs to be a 10 or below.

All right, so we have work to do.

Those are just things that we’ve set, based on the initial analysis. So we don’t have to keep coming back every time and say, is this working or not? It can just quickly, say, 13 is to be 10.

2Right? Right.

So.20:37I think there’s, I think there’s something to just sort of it from a different perspective, is also how the machine learning works and how the AI piece of platforms work.

So, whether it’s perfect audience or, you know, Facebook or Google, or what have you, the more data that you are able to put into the system and allowing it to be able to learn, the more effective it’s going to be, you know, the better it’s going to perform.

So, over time, what we’ll see are, you know, when you first set up your campaign, it will recommend this, too, is we’ll say, give, give the machine, you know, and it’s a function of how much data you’re putting into it, right. The more data, the better.

So as your audience builds, we know more and more about who your perfect prospect is, Your perfect, you know, customer is, and as that are, as the, as the clicks come in, as the conversions happen, The algorithm knows that this is the kind of profile that, you know, somebody is going to match, in order to be able to convert, and, and in the future.

The next customer, the next, you know, the next individual, coming through, so there’s A There’s a time process that also comes into place to where the more data that we’re collecting, the better the thing is, and the better and the higher performance.

All right, that’s very true.

So then, here on our next slide, we’ve got some of the important things that you are going to need at your disposal. To get the data that you need. Right?

Like these having these things in your arsenal or in the platforms that you use are going to help you get the data, the correct data that you need and help you kind of see all the things you need to see. So, on the right side, here, we have a screenshot of a PA dashboard or one of the PA dashboards, and you can see you’ve got clicks, CTR, CPM, CPC, et cetera.

All side-by-side, and you can also kind of, you can kinda change these around you to be what you want to see on a daily basis.

I think it helps to It helps you to figure out which individual publishers, which, when the individual websites, are performing better than others. And so I just realized I’ve seen this screenshot, like probably four times now in the last day.

And I had I did not realize that You know, we also have a screenshot or there should be a screenshot that we should have put into this That actually shows you by the publisher, by the website what these metrics are, right? So if you know that The New York Times for example, let’s say your ad is showing up on the New York Times is outperforming yahoo dot com by you know, 1.5 to 1.

You are going to be able to see that in a more granular way, Right, And you’ll be able to know down, you know, you’ll be able to do exclusions, you know, maybe maybe there’s further down the list, maybe there’s a publisher that is showing your ad a lot and you’re paying for that. I will add a lot, but it’s not producing the, you know, any kind of real results for you over time. Right. And, again, I would stress over time, because it has to have enough data going in and you have to give it enough, you know, enough time to be able to see whether or not that that particular domain is is or that particular publisher is going to perform. But, you know, over time, after you have some data set, you can look at.

And there’s enough data in there to see. You should be able to start trimming back, the less performing campaigns, maybe doubling down on the ones that are performing better, right?

And that gives you the ability to tweak and measure, and I think that’s sort of what the little bubble box to the left is, Right, is it talks about the ability to sort of have both transparency and see what’s going on. It’s not a black box, right?

one of the things that frustrates me, and I don’t, I mean, I can actually, jalali night, sort of complain about this a lot together, is, I don’t like black box solutions that don’t tell me, like what’s happening, right? And on a little bit, the numbers, number two, right? So I’m gonna look at these things, and I’m gonna say, You know, if I’m just gonna trust this thing to work, and I’m going to trust the metrics, and I’m gonna trust that this thing is happening, and I’m going to have no way to see what’s driving those numbers.

I know, I get a little bit of anxiety around that, and so I want to be able to know, you know, at the ad creative level, right, what is happening with my 300 by 300 ad versus my 970 by whatever, right?

So, I mean, there’s a, there’s a lane layer of transparency that I want to see. And there’s also a layer control that I want to have. I wanna be able to turn the dials so that, you know, I know what’s going on, and I can optimize the campaign as as needed.

And then, I don’t know, July, and you want to talk about sort of the reach, and the ad might sort of the ad channels, Things like that.

Yeah, Sure. So, Eric was talking about how he’s looking at a different, and he really is, He’s looking at different aspects of the funnels and trying to figure out where to make improvements.

And if you’ve ever see one of these, I get these other terms, like Facebook feeds and LinkedIn feeds. were the guys. Talking about showing like his garage full of Ferrari’s and you’ll get his funnel scaled up to X Ray and they now have this profitable business. And you’re thinking, like, How did they do that? You know, like, I’ve been working on my e-commerce for years. And never gets, like, it’s, all they’re doing is exactly what we’re talking about. Yeah. Yes, it’s like Eric Chimeric from XML is for ours. That’s like a, it’s, though, they’re used there. They use that to try to sell you on their thing, right? So, that’s kinda sounds reversing, but actually, you can see it right here in this little bar chart.

You’re gonna get a dollar 67 on your biggest campaign.

Your biggest spend is your most expensive, may be good, or maybe better. What if we move some of that spend down to one That’s only 21%, or even what if we then went and said, OK, well, I’m going to change this to get this one.

That was zero point two, 2.3, 5 against this volume, right? And then you run into the situation where we say, well, we’re probably maxing out, like, for example, in this case, what perfect audience to do for us, which is hard to do, but let’s say you got Google or you got promoted, it’s totally working.

Then you have to take the whole thing and move it over to the next channel.

I think one of the big mistakes that I’ve made in my career to lots of them, but two of them, stand out, one, is, had a good business, how, good value proposition had everything set up.

Marketing was not correct, Right? So you think, Oh, there’s businesses, and where it says, nobody wants that are never makes money. But no, it’s just a funnel was wrong.

I just spent time on fixing that. On the other.

I think the other side of it is, kinda just, you start getting so overloaded with data.

Inlaid stats coming in reports coming in. You don’t know what to work on, right? Like, like, what’s the thing this week that you need to change in your business? And that’s hard.

And I think that’s where, as we get into more of a modern age of where, you know, automation is kind of standard and business intelligence and AI is just kind of commonplace, it’s going to make our jobs more of just interpreting what’s coming in and making decisions based on that, rather than trying to manually, like, figure all this stuff out. And I think, to a degree, that’s kinda what perfect audience does for you.

And I’m not trying to no pitch the product or anything.

It’s just, it takes multiple channels, is real-time auctions where you’re bidding on placements in different places, and retargeting to certain groups of people at certain times, right? Like, you can never do that by yourself.

So it gives the people that are doing it in a big advantage, and a lot of times you don’t realize, that’s what’s going on rates.

You’re over here, like pushing buttons and pulling levers and nothing’s working.

You gotta zoom out, slow it down, and get a big picture, then really focus your brain, your marketing brain on what’s, what’s important?

Creative and customer journey, right, and even understand what your ROI is, you know, what are your costs?

Like Katherine was saying, it’s one thing to like take this product costs out of the equation with them, like, what are the costs? Your your stuff, What does the cost of this webinar for us to put this webinar and advertize this webinar goes into our counts, So, yeah. There’s a lot of info, and it can be very overwhelming platform for first, and then find the people that can help you.

And that’s, I think, why we wanted to have this just, you know, if you’re sitting there wondering like, how do I scale what I’m doing, never seems to make money, or, it’s always a close, that’s a great reason to reach out to us, or it will take a look at it for you to help you.

Thanks for something.

Something, too, I mean, I just, know, it’s just thought of is, you know, there’s a you talked a lot about like, you know sort of the overwhelming numbers in Dataflow. There is no shortage of data. Like you can go and look in Google Analytics.

You can go and look in spreadsheets and charts, and you’ve got a million data points coming at you that Making sense of which ones matter is really the most important thing.

And in my experience, I think, you know, just looking at these campaigns Most often, and and I’m gonna I’m gonna sort of, um, I’m going to put a number on it, I guess, and I’m going to say this is a this is one of those situations where the Pareto rule, or the 80 20 rule is really the most important thing that you could possibly have in your sort of arsenal, right? When you wake up in the morning, you sit down in front of your computer, and you’re working through the problem, and you’re trying to figure out how to drive more sales or more conversions or drive more leads You? Know that, you know, how do I increase my conversion rate? so there’s all of these numbers and what do I start on first?

What’s the most important thing, right that most Understanding what that most important thing is?

You know, and What you’ll find is It’s it’s probably only 3 or 4 things, right?

So I’ve got, you know, I’ve got, I don’t know, I mean I’ve got 65 numbers in front of me every morning, You know Google Analytics has got more tabs and I can possibly spend my time on, right?

… does too for that matter, right?

And so, you know when I’m looking at it, I’m saying what what is the driver that? I need to focus on today? That is going to give me the what is the most leverage?

What’s the biggest lever that I can that I can pull today? And if I just focused on that one thing or that you know And again. It’s it’s usually You know, you guys can you guys can? disagree with me if you want but in my experience anyway, and maybe somebody needs to chat with me and yell at me. But my experience is like you know, it’s it’s really kind of like three numbers here.

three or maybe four right and and those are the things that if I pay attention to those things.

You know, everything’s sort of like clarifies and simplifies and all of a sudden you’re in a position where you’re making decisions that you feel good about when you go to sleep at night you turn your computer off, right? That anxiety, especially if you’re an entrepreneur. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been an entrepreneur in my life. I’ve been a director of marketing, and, you know, I’ve done these things.

And sort of being in your shoes, You know, you, you do have sort of, again, a level of doubt, you know, sometimes But I am, I am I like, I got all these meetings and I’m doing all of these things, but am I doing the right things?

And, and so the idea of having it all, like in one place is and simple, sort of, you know, why PA or perfect audiences don’t know. Originally, it was because the people that were running their campaigns were looking at these numbers, all of these different numbers and all of these different channels, and trying to pull it all in under one roof. So it’s it’s, it’s fun.

Years ago I went to a company called revivals Sorry, I think they got bought a long time ago. But I remember is very simply this huge warehouse. So let’s keep working. When it’s the executive room, that on one wall, they have customer acquisition costs for the day, On the other wall, they had lifetime value, and that’s all they look, That’s all the executives looked, like, There are marketing teams are digging into this stuff, like if that was above a certain level, they were good.

If not, they all started like fire drill, and stuff like that. And I think those smart ready gave those guys clarity.

They didn’t have to get into the weeds, they just knew it was working or not. And that was a good kind of comments that have come to everybody down.

Yeah, because there’s a, there’s a frenetic nature in marketing, right. There’s a Kathleen will attest to this. You know. There’s there’s a million things that you can do, and then there are the things that matter, you know. And, and so if you sort of just focusing on the things that matter, that, have the highest leverage and just know, you sort of got to put your, you know, your focus hat on and say, OK, these other things are great. And they’re important. And we want to do these seven side, right, you know, kind of, Stephen, Covey, right? You know, kind of that kind of approach, and that’s why I like to take, like, an 820, you know, patch it to things.

And I say, there’s a, and I see I see really good, Margaret, That’s sort of the difference, like, really good entrepreneurs, really good marketers. That’s what they do is, they just take like, relentless focus and they just take a hatchet to everything else you know and they’re only focusing on those, you know, those big, big levers.

Yeah, that’s right. I was gonna say I wouldn’t necessarily classify myself as a data Hedera numbers. But, I know that those are important, and I’m thankful for people like Jalali and Eric, so that they give me that clarity of what to go and do, and want to go and focus on, Or else like.

They said, I would be losing my mind trying to do amazing things, because I don’t know which of them are actually, you know, driving the bottom line.

So, even, I don’t know, Katherine, you can attest that, I don’t know if you would call yourself a numbers, numbers nerd. But I definitely have a respect for not, even if I’m not into that, as much as Joel and Eric. Yeah, that’s definitely a platform to kind of drill down. And be able to locate the SWOT analysis without having to print everything yourself.

Yeah. That’s, that’s how I feel. So, we do have a couple questions now. If you have questions and you haven’t sent them, then go ahead and send them in. We’ll try to get through some now. And if there are too many to go through, we will do a follow up, but so, our first question is from Brian Walters. And he’s asking, do you introduce third party data or demographics to help in your AI process?

So, so, as our AI expert, I’m going to hand this question to you, Yes. Absolutely. Loved if you have some third party data, and we’ll just see what you’re talking about. Yeah, so that’s just hit on the, the answer to that question is, Eric was kinda saying, so AI, is this kind of big buzz word that I get annoyed? Because now I get annoyed when it gets used too often, because it’s really nothing new, right?

It’s just, this kind of analysis, on a large scale, and Eric kinda hit on a thing, or it’s, the only issue, is that it doesn’t work unless you feed it data, like a Tesla. Tesla. You could, you could, I use the example they have.

The bikes, by far, the most mature, self driving platform, just because it’s driven around the most, right? And that gives them a huge advantage of everybody else. So do you like the car? It’s just been on all the roads, and then like, most people drive the same places all the time.

You get it learns real fast, right?

So, so it says agree, we can train our stuff, our algorithms, ahead of time to give you guys the best ads. Absolutely. In fact, there’s a whole project going on right now with pre trained audiences and people that we already know about. And we know their behavior. We know they’re not robots just scamming. People like. We do a ton of that stuff. Then wrapping others up to your personal with demographics around the only helps make that better and make it work better. And it’s really, like, I think in a few years, will be amazed that we ever did kind of advertising. We used to, where you get, like, a tiny, tiny conversion rate, or a tiny response rate, because this stuff is getting better, and better trained. So Yeah, absolutely. The more stuffing and throwing it, I think my only ever be, like, be careful, you don’t make it already complicated problem, more complicated.

It Goes back to just What is it you’re trying to solve for goal was. Maybe you don’t need to introduce a new demographic information yet, because you’re still just trying to get funnel information. like how are people moving through the process so that they love to see any any stuff that people are working with, or questions related to that. Assam. Yeah. So, Brian, if you have some follow up to that, definitely reach out to us, and we will see what we can do.

But we have a another question from Tracy Lens. So, Tracy, if you’re on here, her question is: do you have any advice for a product that has a fairly long lead cycle?

For example, higher education?

Yeah, that’s a good one too long on sales cycles that have to mature, you know, and be nurtured over time.

There’s a so in jumping incompletely blind, Feel free to know.

Maybe correct me if there’s no comments and things that you want to want to put into the end of the chatbox there.

But, basically, when I’m looking at something that has an extraordinarily long sort of maturing lead cycle, you’re looking at, you know, coming in and optimizing around a particular, you know, lower, lower commitment kind of offer, right? So, a good example is actually the webinar that may be brought you in, or, sorry, the, the, the ads that brought you into this webinar.

So, we have lots of ads that were running on our own behalf, for perfect audience, and we will have a, know, we’ll have a soft offer that will come in and we’ll, we’ll have you come in, you know, click on the, you know, click on a particular high performing ad. You will visit the site. And then we’ll also be launching retargeting ads, you know, in the event that you didn’t fill out the, you know, the e-mail capture that we asked you to fill out. And bringing you back, if you did, you know, if you, if you did get to the landing page and you’re looking at it. You know, we’re giving you the information, but it’s a super, super soft offer, right? We’re not asking for credit cards or anything upfront, right? It’s not a hard offer, and then what we’re doing is we put you into a drip series.

A lot of higher education, obviously, is, in this, in this sort of bucket of types of advertisers. where you have to, over time, like your e-mail list, honestly, is the most valuable asset you have. Alright, and we talked a lot about that on webinars in the e-mail list that you have. That’s like the one thing you really own, right?

And you own that audience that the e-mail audience, and you gotta treat them, like gold know? And you have to develop relationships with them, so maybe you’re not hitting them hard, offers. You know, for your product every time, but what you are doing is delivering content for them. You’re giving them, you know, access to, you know, case studies or e-books, things like that, that sort of drive the conversation forward when they are at that point, where they’re making a decision. And some of them will be. And if you, if you sort of view it, like a funnel, you know, there are going to be people that are.

There’s still further up into the buying decision phase that you are, are bringing, you, know, bringing to build further down into the, you know, into the funnel, so that when they are making that decision there, they’re going to convert.

So, there’s no e-mail marketing, it’s why marketing automation is incredibly popular right now, and allows you to be able to do a lot with a little. Alright, so that you’re able to build e-mail sequences and you’re able to do triggers based on behavior. Or what kind of landing pages they visited, or what kind of actions that they took.

And then also, again, sort of tying all of that back into, you know, some of your, your paid no ad strategy to do so, um, Getting people to do that, and then it’s funny, like marketing, a lot of times you’ll see him stop right there at the conversion, Right, and then at the end, like, you go further, right? You take that for that relationship further, because then there are upsell opportunities, cross sell opportunities things like that that you’re able to send and you’re able to attract. I mean, we’re in a time right now.

We can track everything, right? So the idea of being able to see where somebody is in the buyer journey is incredibly valuable, right? In allowing you to be able to very specifically target them with certain types of messages that they’re gonna find useful at that particular time.

And, And again, you can actually overcomplicate it. Yeah. Yeah, you can get super, super complicated and you can have 55 different, you know, triggers and all of these other kinds of things. But I would go back to what we just talked about a couple of minutes ago. Focus on the 3 or 4 metrics that really are what’s driving the, each one of those sort of steps in the fall.

And make sure you’re concentrating on those every day and have them on a post it note, or something, Know, or a dash, you know that you just have on your screen, as it’s, you know, throughout the day. So you’re paying attention, and making sure that those things are top of mind, that.

Yeah, great question. If there’s obviously more specific, you know, things you want to talk about, I’m sure you can you can do that, too.

Yeah, definitely. So you have comments or questions. Just reach out. Same for Brian and everyone else, who are going to go with your questions today. But we will go ahead and jump to, we’ll take 1 or 2 more questions. And we have one from Felix.

And his question is, is there a particular kind of ad that will give you a better conversion rate?43:29Whether that be video interactive or, or any other type, or doesn’t depend on the industry that you’re focusing in?

That’s a good question.


So, generally, I hate answering these questions, because it always comes down to testing the two ads, like every situation is going to be different. Every channels can have a different type of ad, works better.

Generally, what we tell people will do in that scenario, though, is test 4 or 5 different types initially.

Get your best, click through in your best conversion, and then run and scale a little bit with that one.

So you’re not trying to continuously change URLs to see kind of a general idea what’s going to work best. Anecdotally, I just did an analysis on one of the bigger advertisers.

Hands down across the board, animated ads work better than static ones.

I can’t say whether that’s like, we’re gonna work for everybody, but it kinda makes sense, the motion of it.

The video ads are performing way differently, so you don’t get click throughs on videos as much in most scenarios. So you kinda might think it’s not working, well, we’ve seen advertisers are the videos are actually the number one driver.

All right, so you have to be a little bit careful, but yeah, we just test, like literally, I think 20 plus years of doing this is the one thing I come back, because I don’t like it, probably going to be wrong. So we set up real structural testing on all stuff. We try to move through real quick.

I get too carried away. But just like, is this working? Is this working? Is this working?

And then down through, Jalali is extraordinarily humbly as he.

That is, that is something that, I think it’s true though.

You know, we, we’ve done a series of live webinars over the, and they were live there, they work tape recorded, not edited nothing and they would just live webinars where people would send in their ads.

And they would send in their landing pages and they’d say, you know, like, help me figure this out, like, help me optimize this.

And then, you know, and we would go through live and sort of go take a, take a guess, a pretty methodical approach at what works and what doesn’t work, right? And then they would go and test it. They would come back with the results, right? And what would end up happening is you know, you would find that what you thought was going to work really well. Ultimately, you know flopped for one reason or another or over here on this side, you know something that you tried that you tested and You dialed in really well before you outperformed everything else to one.

Alright, So, one of the, I totally agree with what Jalali said, and everything is about testing, you know, testing and iterating and doing it quickly.

It is not, it is not a static.

No, just, you know, put an ad out and and in one ad, and you put it up and sort of hope for the best, those campaigns, you’re not going to work, and, in fact, you know, we discourage it because we know if that that is one thing for sure that’s not, that’s not going to perform for you.

So, I, I’ve seen that like, I’ve seen, I’ve gone where I’ve tested ad creative, different types and offers, different types of copy, different design layouts, and the whole bit.

And, you know, I, you know, I know, I could never be to launch something and I have my control. And, I couldn’t beat it, and I couldn’t eat it and I couldn’t beat it like three months ago by might be iterating, like, you know, 40th Time or something. I couldn’t beat it in that 41st time.

No, was something that was, you know, just absolutely destroyed the first, the first control.

And in that methodical approach, as you go through, and you start honing in on who your audience is, and what they’re responding to, is really where the value is. You know, and you can ask, it’s like, OK, Well, for the first, you know, 40 days, or 40 creatives, was that worth it?

Well, in that particular case, based on the volume that we were doing at the time, you know, that was another 1,000,000,000.5 a year in revenue.


And so million, million, and three.

And so, you know, that that kind of deep know sort of devotion to testing and getting it right is really super, super important.

That’s awesome. So we have kind of a similar question.

And this will be the last question we take for today, but this is from L’Oreal, and she says, Or I’m sorry, I see, or she says that My question is when marketing campaign or marketing strategies are recommended for startup internet companies. So I kind of asked, I follow up of, what kind of Internet companies are we talking about here? So yeah, Like, you have a little bit of background, you can give us that.

But just in general, I think we kind of touched on startups in our earlier talk about business models and stuff. So, maybe you guys have some better insight about how to do the marketing strategies for startups.

Recently, I would say, focusing on content marketing is, is a really promising avenue for startups, and just to be able to built the brand and be able to create like an educational portal on your website, And then, obviously, using ads to, to generate leads, and drive traffic to this, to your content, build up your social channels, recently, started, that’s where we, where we tend to prioritize kinda. Like understanding buyer persona is creating educational, useful content that’s, that’s designed to appeal to them. And then, using that as a, as an avenue to generate impressions to advertising. Ultimately, generate leads.

I think that’s a I think that’s a, that’s a good point.

There’s a, um, there’s a lot, especially for startups that, you know. They, they, they’ve built a product.

They have designed the product. They feel like they kind of know what the audience is.

And, you know, who the customer is, and Content marketing does help with that, right? It helps.

You know, as you think as you start educating people and you and you, and you lay things out, it does help identify Yeah, that’s right.

It helps you too, um, identify, you know, and sort of hone in on what the and who that the prospect is, the truth that you’re targeting.

I think there’s a combination of that. Plus, you know, if I were starting a brand new company from scratch, and I have no product, or, sorry, I had a product launch my product, it’s a software. Let’s say. It’s just the software as a service, you know. model.

And I, and I, and I kinda, know, I know I’m building this thing for, right.

I’ve got my engineering team and there, and we’re building something, and I have a pretty good idea of what that is.

But, when I start something, I actually, what I, what I try to do is I actually start with a PPC.

And, and because it’s going to allow me to be able to see very quickly, Yeah. And drive traffic to my offer and find out if they have any interest whatsoever, Right.

And, you know, you drive some traffic through, it, allows you to be able to sort of judge and see who is clicking, who’s interested, what kind of ads they’re clicking on, that sort of thing. So that you can kind of get a feel for who your your prospect is and that is super informative when you have no data at all, Right? Starting with nothing.

So getting that, you know, have an idea.

Are they even responding? It’s interesting. Like, I would actually take a step back before. And I know I’m not precisely answering your question. Now. I’m actually taking a step before that.

And I’m saying that before I even launch a product, I still have a PPC campaign, right?

That’s what tells me whether or not the product is going to resonate with my audience and whether or not I can get them to do anything.

At the end of the day, what you want them to do is be able, and if you’re like a sass model or something, you want to be able to pull out a credit, right?

That’s the goal right here. You want them to be able to apply a credit card and convert and it’s a you know. If you if you’re running a PPC campaign through and you’re driving traffic to your landing page and nobody’s doing anything right. Then It’s you’ve either got an offer problem or you’ve got, you know, you’ve got an audience problem, right?

You don’t know like, you know what what you find is, and I got advice for startups and stuff over the years, and one of the things that I find is a product is built. There’s lots of startup dollars put into it.

Maybe outside investment has been Raised and you just know you get everybody excited around it and you built the wrong product for the customer, right, and you find out out six months after you’ve launched your marketing campaign, and your marketing partner comes back and says We can’t, we can’t sell this thing, Right? I see that time and time and time again, right, the most beautiful products you’ve ever seen in your life well designed, You know, or or here’s another. Here’s another way to put it.

Existing products for an existing company that you are now launching, right?

So same sort of thing.

You’ve got your core product and, you know, there’s a lot of excitement around this new product idea, or this new feature, and there is no no no pre-testing or anything has gone into it. Right? There’s been, you know, a thousand dev hours have been put into this new feature, and then, you know, it just falls on deaf ears and you can’t get adoption.

Right? So there’s, there’s a lot of being able to do that. And if you have, especially if you’re in that situation where you already have a product, you have an audience, and you’ve built something up, you can actually go and this is sort of where retargeting is. Good. Because it’s less expensive than PPC and, you know, allows you to be able to bring back people that are already familiar with you and your brand. Right. And they’ve already seen your messaging now. You’re sending them a new message. Do they do anything with that offer, right?

I’m sure everybody’s sort of experienced experienced, that sort of thing.

So I’m not sure if I answered your question, but maybe I don’t know, Kathleen Jalali. Anybody else want to chime in there?

I think that, no, I mean, that’s everything that you said, makes sense. And I don’t think I have too much to add, except for that, I guess. For us, are companies, like you said?

It’s just, the biggest, The biggest thing, in my mind, would be awareness, like exposure and awareness, and focusing on your audience. So, as much as you can put your name out, there is probably going to be, like your number one, focus for strategy.

I wonder if you have anything to add Jalali?

Yeah. It’s actually going to use the same example of using ads to test the business concepts ahead of time. This is a great way to do it. If you’ve already launched, then, actually, I think, are you going to put this up here?

We’re offering free credit, and some free creative, that would be a great way to get started as a startup.

So, you get a professional designer, so then we get, we get remote, you know, there’s a limit on this, so I’m not sure how many people are gonna do this, but it’s, uh, yeah, like get some good creatives, give them spinning and different places, start to look at your your funnel, like what’s happening with this. There are people coming through, so we’re fronting the budget and giving you the ads really have nothing to lose on this one. But it also just gives you a great amount of info, like, we can even do some different ads. No 1 with 1 message, the other one with another. And to see what works like.

It’s such a valuable piece of info, Especially when you’re early on, before you raise all the money, before you are free to spend all the money, at least, you know, I get some data points from what’s happening.

Yeah, that’s all right. So, I’m going to go ahead and drop the link, that’s on here, in the chat box below. So, if you’re interested in this, or you want to learn more about it, it’s perfect audience dot com slash match. And the link is in the chat box on the bottom right.

So with that, we just wanna do a get, a reminder that we have webinars every two weeks. So our next webinar is coming up on August sixth and the traffic that’s going to be retargeting best practices. So for anyone who had questions about, you know, marketing strategy or how to get started, this is going to be a super great webinar, kind of like a one-on-one or retargeting in general. Eric, I don’t know if you, on an ad, any bullet points? I think it’s going to be one of our more popular events that we hold. We get these types of questions all the time. You know, luckily quite a bit of capacity with, with go to webinar. Where we can, we can see lots of, or we can get lots of people on at the same time.

And they will probably allow it to be viewed as a recorded series two, in case you can’t miss it or make it. But yeah, it’s, it’s going to be. I think it will be one of our more popular ones. For sure.

Yeah, I also agree, I think it will be, so it’ll be and we do send out a recording of every webinar to the restaurants. So, if you want to go ahead and just register, not sure. If you can make it, that’s totally fine. Don’t get a, you’ll get a recording, and then all the information will also be on our blog after the fact. But with that, we just want to say thank you, Katherine, for joining us today.

We also love senior dog there at the end for us, for a few seconds. Yeah.

They asked me this, really.


Sweet. Well, thanks for showing her to us, and thank you for coming on here. And then also, thanks Eric, Anjali, as always, for all of your knowledge and expertise.

So, with that, we are going to call this, but we hope you guys enjoy. We hope you got some good nuggets out of it. As always, if you have more questions, e-mail us at support at perfect audience dot com, and we will take care of you.

Thank you, everybody.

<a href="" target="_self">A.I. Lab</a>

A.I. Lab

AI Lab Director - Perfect Audience: Serving as both AI Lab Director of Perfect Audience and CMO of Robauto, Jalali is a proven thought leader and engineer in the field of innovation and new technology. He is credited with creating breakthrough technology products, companies, and lasting IP in e-commerce, A/B testing, social media, and artificial intelligence.

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